The government has no right telling me what I can or cannot do with my body.  Period.  End of Story.  The gov't needs to worry about things it  has responsibility for.  I have read and reread the Constitution and I don't see anything about giving the federal gov't the right to legislate moral values.  

God gives us the right to choose.  We have the right to choose to believe in him or not.  We have the right to do the right thing or not.  We have the right to read his word or not.

Each of us is answerable for our choices before our maker.  All Pro-Lifers want to do is impose their religious, moral beliefs onto other people who have different religious and moral beliefs.  And I believe that is also protected against in the Constitution and Bill of Rights! 

Those in the Religious Right have invested so much time and effort in dealing with the legality of abortion while disregarding many factors that, if dealt with, could help reduce the need for an abortion in the first place.  It has surprised me that, as much as they care about this issue, they haven't made their strategy more multi-faceted.  Instead, they focus like a laserbeam on its legality of the procedure while the other facets, such as birth control, decent employment for the mother, and adoption, go underemphasized (not that they don't do these things at all, but it gets much less focus that their efforts on legislation).  One would wish that they might consider broadening their stategy a bit if they really want to make a difference on this.

Billy Strain

Jesse,

I just simply don't get this at all but, this is where I am - I do not understand how an abortion, which is leagalized murder, is acceptable 30 seconds before a child is delivered yet 30 seconds after that same child is delivered, if killed, the leagal system says that's murder and the person doing it would be charged, potentially convicted and jailed or even executed in some cases.  It seems to me this is the great hypocrisy.  You see, in my mind, what reasonable person would choose to delibertly murder their own child??  Yet, that is exactly the thing that happens in abortion regardless of the procedure used.  This can only be dealt with if you believe that the child is not really a child until it's out of the womb - what kind of craziness is this - it's total insanity!  Folks, the child 30 seconds before delivery is the same child 30 seconds after delivery - a living soul and before the God we say we believe in and worship there is no difference between in the womb or outside the womb - it is the sheding of innocent blood and God himself detests the sheding of  innocent blood - we're a nation of murders of the innocent and Iraq pales in comparison to the violence we done to our own childern - we have killed at least one full generation and more human beings!  Don't even bring Iraq into this it doesn't even come close regardless of your position on it or any other war past or present.

This does not seem to me to be an issue of a woman's right to choose - that excuse is nothing but political hogwash which brings me back to the question of how a person can take the life of an innocent child unless you consider it not a child until after it's out of the womb.  Folks, this is total insanity as I said above and you can't believe for one minute that God will let this go unpunished - it doesn't work that way - WE ARE WRONG ON THIS ABORTION ISSUE!  If it's murder 30 seconds after then it's murder 30 seconds or 9 months before - folks we've missed it - we are wrong.  The answer is not to reduce the need the answer is STOP IT PERIOD!  Now you can call me evey name in the book and declare me a cold hearted, unkind, intolerant, less than human person if you want but ultimately we have to answer to God for this violence and I believe that's what you should fear, not whether the Court makes abortion illegal - that is the least of our problems with regard to this issue.

MRC

Jesse -- I agree with you that the most practical solution to abortion is to do everything we can to prevent unwanted pregnancies.  That is common sense.  

However, your point about civil rights, clean air etc, I disagree with.  These are not moral issues.  Civil rights & Immigration are about equal protection under the law.  Clean Air Act is about protecting our essential assests. 

In answer to MRC's rant above, MY religious and moral view IS that I do not view a fetus as life until it is outside my womb and breathing and supporting life on its own.   I'm not going to get into a Biblical debate on the subject because I'm sure I can quote as much scripture to support my beliefs as MRC can.  Romans 15 teaches us that there will be differences that we must accept and not be a stumblingblock unto each other.  In other words you don't impose your moral and religious views on me and I don't impose mine on you.  

Which is exactly why the government was set up to stay out of moral issues.  I repeat, God gives up the right to choose our behavior.   Any attempt by government to restrict that right of choice, in my opinion is out of bounds.

Truth is Truth whether we like it or not - that's true for eveyone including me - Psalm 139 has the best answer on the issue of life before birth and yes it is a child with a living soul while still in the womb and Cindy, you illustrated my point perfectly - the only way a person can justify and deal with this is to make distinction between in the womb and out of the womb - if you don't then you have a real problem with this whole issue of abortion - you have to conclude that it is murder just the same if the child is considered a living human being with a soul while still in the womb and if that happens abortion goes out the window because no sane person could conceive of the horror and violence that takes place in that procedure and be able to keep their sanity - the only way you can deal with it is to make the child a non-person unitl after delivery - that's crazy!

As I mentioned God, detests sheding innocent blood and we've shed it on a grand scale with our own childern since 1973 and as a result we've killed more than an entire generation of human beings and whether we like it or not God will deal with this harshly.  As to choice - yes you have it and God won't force a choice on you however he did give us his word as a guide and if we won't abide by it we're without excuse when we have to answer to God on these issues.  We're wrong on this issue - we've sacraficed our own childern.

MRC

MRC -- read Romans 14.

I will proudly stand before my heavenly father for my actions and beliefs.

The reason this issue will never be resolved because people who share your beliefs believe they are not only right but they have the right to impose their beliefs on other people.

And in the process they use incidiary words that  in many cases are ignorant.

You sound like a Pharisee during Jesus time.   Maybe you should read John, chapter 8 as well.

If the Dems are going to legislate moral values, then it's time to go back to the GOP and repair the damage the Bushies have done.   I  repeat, our Gov't should not be legislating moral values.

God give us FREEDOM TO CHOOSE!   Even Christ was an example of that. 

Jesse -- what is civil rights, then?  Wasn't the civil right movement about equality.  That minorities weren't given the same privileges in this grand republic as those in the majority.   Wasn't it about the founding principle of this country that all men were created equal?  Again, that is about equal rights under the law for all its citizens.  A fetus in my womb is not a citizen.  When it comes out of my womb then it is a citizen.  Then you can talk about its rights.  Until then, until it breathes air and supports life on its own outside my body,  it is simply another appendage.  

I realize that statement will provoke a lot of heated comments from people who feel they are right but in the end, IT'S MY BODY!   Thank God above, the Supreme Court still recognizes that right for now.

In the end, I just find it remarkable that men seem to think they are right when they don't have any part in carrying a fetus and a rather large percentage of them, don't even acknowledge their fatherly duties. 

I repeat, GOD gives us the right to choose.  We can choose to believe, or not to believe in him.  We can choose to do his will or NOT.  We are each accountable for our actions before our heavenly father.   And I have no problem standing before my father in all righteousness.

This is my last post to this thread because I have made my point.  I do not need to prove myself right as so many others do on this subject. 

Jesse,

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that we will never settle this issue until people come to realize that a child is a person with a God given living soul.  The only way anyone can justify in their minds this procedure called abortion is to make the child a non-person - an appendage as it was put in the last post.  I really believe that a person could not deal with the guilt of having committed murder unless this was the case - to declare the child a non-person - so, this is where we've come to and it's sad.

As to clarity in scripture - it is not necessary that the word abortion be in scripture (it's not) however there are some things that are clearly implied and I believe this falls in that catagory - God hates murder, hates the sheding of innocent blood and like it or not you can't get around that one period and abortion is a murderous action - innocent blood is shed and a living soul killed.

As to legislation of morals - I think most can agree that just about every law that is put on the books from the local government upto the federal government is to some degree or another someone or several persons moral or morals.  Example - just what we've been talking about here with the issue of murder - morally speaking it's wrong and it's outlawed - it's a moral issue that we have laws against.

MRC

Jesse,

I think that Democrats on the Hill that are advancing the 90/10 bill are taking an positive,effective step in dealing with the problem of abortion.  I'm hoping that Faithful Democrats might help the Dems hone their message.  Meanwhile, I applaud your efforts to engage critics in honest debate, but I fear that, at least in a few cases, you may be wasting your time.  After all, how do you reason with someone who seems to think they've cornered the market on moral authority and right thinking?

The partial birth abortion debate is over, and Democrats lost.  It was your position that slaying a child who had been partially delivered was a "right."

It was found to be wrong!

What many people do not understand is that abortions did not begin in America in the wake of the 1972 Supreme Court Roe v Wade decision. Prior to that decision, many young ladies, many of whom were poor and desperate found ways to end their pregnancies - often with devastating results. And even if the Supreme Court were to reverse the 1972 decision, abortions would continue to occur. I think that what many people object to is that this issue has been so poiliticized by the Republican Party and by the Religious Right. If this is such an important issue to the present administration and to the Republicans, why haven't they proposed a constitutional amendment outlawing all abortions? Besides, Republican presidents have appointed all but two of the nine members of the court. No, this is a symbiotic relationship between the Republican Party and the Religious Right in which each is using (and misusing) the other. It's probably not going to go away until the court either reverses the decision or there is some kind of national plebiscite. Then, abortions will be limited to those who are well off enough (Republicans) to travel to somewhere where it can be done.

Though I personally oppose abortion, there are circumstances in which I would approve it, and that is what makes this whole issue so complex.